BLIZZARD CONFERENCE ROOM MAY 2, 2007

Written by Jedik of Agamaggan

Sequel to:
Tseric’s REAL meeting 3/1/0/7
*TSERIC's REAL Meeting 3/1/07

First thread got locked after 300 posts. Figured I'd write a sequel directed towards the new patch. Enjoy.

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[Tseric] says: Uhhh, so why was I called back from my vacation early? I was in the middle of a first class massage getting rubbed by a..

[Developer Greg] says: ..because the Shaman class is in a very bad state right now.

[Tseric] says: What, like Maine? I got food poisoning off their lobster this one time.

[Developer Greg] says: No, I mean the class is broken and they need a review.

[Tseric] says: Get a screwdriver and fix it.

[Developer Andrew] says: We’re talking about a class…in the World of Warcraft.. Sigh, anyway, we need to take a look at their concerns on the shaman forums. I kind of feel sorry for them.

[Tseric] says: Hey, I play this game too.

[Developer Sara] says: You might want to get past level 49 first.

[Tseric] says: Why, I own with my 49 lock. Only thing that beats me really is this one shaman. His name was oprahwindfury and he hit me three times in less than a second. They, like, seriously need a nerf.

[Developer Greg] says: Umm, we need to balance level 70 PvP, not twink PvP. And its called windfury Tseric, his name kind of implied that he was enhancement…

[Tseric] says: Dude, being able to hit like 329 times in less than a second with TWO weapons.

[Developer Greg] says: Are you kidding? Windfury is a 20% proc and you already nerfed before.

[Tseric] says: Did we not put a cooldown on windfury?

[Developer Greg] says: Well, I heard that they can use windfury 4/5 or 3/4 on their weapons to bypass it.

[Tseric] says: Nerf it. Twenty minute cooldown should be good enough.

[Developer Greg] says: You can’t just go around nerfing everything that has the potential of doing decent damage. Their dps would be significantly lowered if you took that away.

[Tseric] says: Well, retribution shaman aren’t supposed to do damage anyway, I thought I told them all to go Discipline.

[Developer Andrew] says: Um, don’t you mean enhancement to restoration?

[Tseric] says: Drew, don’t make me call your mother.

[Developer Greg] says: Guys, guys, we need to work on the shaman review, that is what this meeting is about.

[Tseric] says: Right, so what about these other trees..um….Marksmanship.

[Developer Greg] says: Marksmanship is for hunters, but this is about what the shaman class needs. We need to review the Elemental tree.

[Tseric] says: Element? Why are we talking about skateboards?

[Developer Greg] says: Elemental is the caster dps tree of the shaman…

[Tseric] says: Okay, what about it?

[Developer Greg] says: Here’s the problems I got from the forums: 41 point talent, crowd control, survivability, mana efficiency..

[Tseric] says: Woah woah woah, mana efficiency? Pretty sure they don’t have problems with that.

[Developer Sara] says: I’m pretty sure they do. They always go out of mana and they don’t have much in the means of getting it back.

[Tseric] says: There was this orc shaman who was casting lightning bolts at that one goblin named Dr. Boom in Netherstorm for FIVE minutes. Five minutes dude, how is that bad.

[Developer Andrew] says: I highly doubt he was able to cast rank 12 lightning bolts for 5 minutes. Are you sure you watching him cast for the full 5 minutes?

[Tseric] says: He was casting in the first minute and in the fifth minute.

[Developer Andrew] says: And the other three minutes?

[Tseric] says: I don’t know, there was this Girls Gone Wild infomercial on comedy central...

[Developer Sara] says: So he could have gotten innervates by a druid or a mana tide by a resto shaman?

[Developer Andrew] says: We need a real test of an elemental shaman’s efficiency.

[Tseric] says: What makes them so efficient?

[Developer Greg] says: They ARENT efficient enough, but its their clearcasting talent that gives them decent efficiency.

[Tseric] says: What does that do?

[Developer Greg] says: After they crit with a spell their next offensive spell is free.

[Tseric] says: WOAH, so they can cast a spell that costs a bajillion million mana after a clearcast.

[Developer Sara] says: Um, if they had a spell that cost “a bajillion million” mana, then yes.

[Tseric] says: That is just way too overpowered.

[Developer Greg] says: No it isn’t, it only happens after a crit so its not like it happens all the time.

[Developer Andrew]: Well, there was this one tauren shaman who had 43% crit in a raid one time.

[Tseric] says: What the hell? My warlock only has 5.12% spell crit.

[Developer Greg] says: God damnit Tseric, you’re level 49 and you’re an affliction warlock.

[Tseric] says: So what? I wear cloth and they wear mail, they shouldn’t be better than me at casting.

[Developer Greg] says: Tseric, your character has a level 32 belt of the owl, do you honestly think you should be out damaging a shaman in full tier 4?

[Tseric] says: Yeah, we’re supposed to be much better than a healing class.

[Developer Greg] says: They have two damage trees, you know.

[Tseric] says: I thought we were going to nerf those ‘til they all go resto, then nerf resto until every last shaman quits.

[Developer Andrew] says: Why would we ever do that? We’re supposed to balance the game.

[Tseric] says: Well, Eyonix’s psychologist said that Blizzard needed to delete the shaman class so he could overcome his feelings.

[Developer Sara] says: Wait a second, we’re deleting the class?

[Tseric] says: Why not? They’re overpowered, hate us and nobody plays them anyway.

[Developer Andrew] says: THAT IS THE POINT OF THIS MEETING. FIXING SHAMAN. WE BALANCE THEM, THEY ARE SATISFIED AND MORE PEOPLE PLAY SHAMAN, GET IT?

[Tseric] says: Wow, you are sooooo s-t-y-o-u-p-i-d.

[Developer Andrew] says: I’m going to go home to down a bottle of Vicodin.

[Tseric] says: Haha, I bet that guy didn’t even pass high school. What a l-e-w-s-e-r.

[Developer Sara] says: Actually, he graduated from MIT. You spelled stupid and loser wrong by the way.

[Tseric] says: Uhh, Sara, can we please stay on topic here? Thanks. So let’s finish this up, I want Jack-in-the-Box. Nerf their cleancost from 100% to 60%, k? Done.

[Developer Greg] says: Horrible idea. Shaman don’t need nerfs, they need other things.

[Tseric] says: Like what? Porn? We got plenty of that, just go to the 4th floor, take a right and go into the janitor’s clo..

[Developer Greg] says: No, they need a review. We should dedicate a week towards working on fixing their class.

[Tseric] says: Screw that, I’d lose my tan if I spent a week here in the office. I gotta go back to the Bahamas. You could use a tan yourself.

[Developer Greg] says: I have a job here and I’d like to keep it.

[Tseric] says: Dude, just create like 1000 accounts on random servers, dash create 70 warlock and go to ebay, works like a **#%ing charm.

[Developer Greg] says: What? That’s against company policies.

[Tseric] says: I don’t care, I’ll be the one with two hookers in the Bahamas. Peace out *!**@es, I’ll be back in a few months. Fix those stamen for me while I’m gone. IM OUT.

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Q u o t e:


its called a sense of humor and its the only thing our class has left to fall back on. so get a sense of humor and come back here mmkay?

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Do you think the community would act the same way if I wrote up a satirical post on the shaman board? I've got a great sense of humor and am sure I could write a fairly biting satire. Do you think the community would regard me as funny or would they think I'm condescending and offensive?

It has become my impression over years that the community can't take the medicine they give. An inherent imbalance, yes? ;)

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Q u o t e:


Cause the community is one person. :P

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In my position, you face that inevitable conclusion.

When each person presents themselves as "we", how else am I supposed to take it? :P

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Q u o t e:

Oh, snap!

Then again, when many voices are saying the same things as you, it is natural to start turning what would normally be phrased as "I think" to "We think". Doesn't mean it's logical, only that this is what happens.

Mob mentality has overtaken this community.

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Scormus, I was hoping you'd see some of the point you're making; if not all. :P

I have never denied that shaman have some shortcomings, but the ratio of noise to signal has been very poor/large.

And let's not play around...you've contributed to it. Perhaps, in a symmetric way that I have, too.

But seriously, elemental will still be viable, resto always was. Just depends on what situations you think you're going to win.

If you want to talk enhance, they're lending themselves to a solo build. That's why it seems frustrating from a transition from leveling to end-game. Folks are familiar with their spec, and don't want to break from it. They have opportunity for DPS in a raid situation, but the PvP is tougher due to inherent drawbacks, such as the lack of overwhelming CC.

The devs really do think that a strong CC on the par of poly or fear would push the shaman so far over the line, that they'd just end up nerfed again. I'm still pushing the idea of a CC-break, but what can I say if there is still no sell?

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Q u o t e:


And herein lies most of Blizzard's problems.

Tseric say it with me slowly.

Us customers.

You customer support.

We aren't held to the same standards.

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And what support can I give you beyond what is actually happening? Or my own pep rallying?

It is your own expectations that leave you disappointed.

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Q u o t e:

Well we can agree to disagree on whether Enhancement and Elemental are all that viable, and leave it at that. As for the earlier point, I most certainly have added to the uproar over the coming patch, because... well, it's my nature. I am emotionally involved with what happens to this class, and I don't think it is where it needs to be. Maybe if you have awesome gear a Shaman is on par with other classes, but for those of us with lesser gear, I don't think we are.

But like I said, we can agree to disagree on that.

I will make an attempt to stop stirring the pot around here, because you are right, I have been part of the mob that has grown here. I wasn't the first, but I can step aside, and refrain from making it worse.

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I appreciate the sentiment. I hope you can understand the nuance of having you as an experienced player and me having experience in what the business makes. They aren't the same thing and they never will be. I'd love to have the deep experience you do with your class, but if I did that I'd have to do it for everyone, and I would be sacrificing something in the process. I'd be sacrificing my own joy of the game. I am never going to know "your real pain as a shaman", because it is a completely subjective experience. It would be like me telling you how hard it was to grow up as a warlock. You'd laugh, because the current time doesn't fit with it. It's an old story.

I'm still pushing for enhancement to be something more than it is.

It's a complex class, and that causes frustration.

I'll bring it up again and again, but I doubt 'Mana Tide' is becoming trainable.

I wish I could tell you that your class will be deleted, then remade in the way you exactly wanted it to be, but there is too much gameplay and distinction for such irrational moves to be made.

In some respect, I'm willing to call the community on it's bluff of the class being abandoned. The end is not nigh.

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Q u o t e:
It's all about pleasing the consumer and creating equality amoung classses- i would love that

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While it's a nice sentiment, and I truly have reached for it...it is an ideal and not a reality. On both counts.

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Q u o t e:


I don't get this at all.

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It means that resto builds work well in PvP and PvE, but some folks will retort with the "healbot" excuse.

Elemental works in both PvP and PvE, as well, but they'll retort with "4th grade" or some other hierarchal/linear thinking. The min/max approach. "If I'm not the best at it, I suck!" - attitude.

Chain heal rocks. Don't deny it.

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Q u o t e:


Are you aware that raids are designed with Min/Maxing in mind and people aren't going to want a DPSer that doesn't have mana to DPS?

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Your guild may be designed with that in mind, but that isn't the same.

Well, to be more specific...you don't have to min/max to participate. Many guilds don't. You're just trying to "keep up with the Joneses".

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Q u o t e:


Enhancement Shamans are really fine for High end PVE.
Elemental Shamans are below average for High end PVE
Restoration Shamans are above average for high end PVE.

Only build that sucks for PVP is enhancement, elemental and restoration are both strong enough to be desired.

All the rest is just QQ.

There are space for improvements? Sure, so many good suggestions around the boards. Do Shamans suck? Not at all.

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You've effectively summed up the devs sentiments.

P.S. - to add to that...the devs want to look for better, long term adjustments to the abilities on the table to bring shaman into a better place; Not to tear up the foundation in a desperate attempt to revise the class.

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Q u o t e:


So then what weve feared the entire time is true. Could have saved us all alot of time leveling our shaman if you would have told us "Shaman are designed to be subpar" A long time ago

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You diminish yourself with your outlook.

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Q u o t e:

What, then, is being done for Elemental Shaman? Besides nerfing our mana efficiency and tier set? =(

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Mana efficeincy of 100% percent was too much. The tier set has been commented by us, as it has been of you, and that tier is undergoing revision in the upcoming patch.

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Q u o t e:
A change sugguestion by Ezareth was to add more static mana regeneration, and I think it a good one. 100% did scale too well, perhaps, so a better balance of static and scaling mana regen, perhaps..? Something?

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Itemize with mana per 5? Trinkets? It is an option. You can't say that you have no way to compensate. The elemntal focus change can be mitigated with 18% crit, and it's possible to have more. Choices are available.

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Q u o t e:
"Min-maxing" is just another word for "finding game balance problems".

If the game was balanced, people would still min/max, but they wouldn't be able to reach any conclusions. Or they'd find out that the difference is so negligible that nobody would care one way or another. Or would find it difficult to quantify the differences to the point that the whole exercise is frivolous to start with.

But, we can just ignore min/maxing, if we want, and just go on pretending everything is fine. Ignorance is bliss, eh?


It's not impossible to do things with a less-than-optimal group. Maybe your other players are good enough to compensate for shortcomings. But that's just the thing - they shouldn't HAVE to compensate for you. If they are, it means that there's an imbalance, and imbalances are made to be fixed.

Things aren't "fine" because some people are nice enough to overlook the problems. Looking at it realistically, you're a charity case. They're bringing you to be nice, or because they can't find anyone better. If the guild wanted to optimize, you would not be there, or you would have to respec resto.

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Disagree. Focusing on the bleeding edge assumes everyone is there. It washes over the fact that classes have more function than bleeding edge, and must function in other levels. Players in the end-game tend to think that this is the game. It is simply their game, but the class still has to function in other aspects.

Simply put, min/maxing for PvE is not the same for PvP, nor is it even for leveling. All of those components of the game must be considered, not just the one you're invested in.

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Q u o t e:

It's not impossible to do things with a less-than-optimal group. Maybe your other players are good enough to compensate for shortcomings. But that's just the thing - they shouldn't HAVE to compensate for you. If they are, it means that there's an imbalance, and imbalances are made to be fixed.

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This game has been balanced on the fact that you can find various classes to fill certain roles. Multiple healers, multiple tanks, multiple dps. Otherwise, you stand in a city spamming for what you think is "the best class".

Allow play for a varied group. Min/max if you really care.

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Q u o t e:
Does a warlock or a mage ever have to drop all their enchants for nonsense like vitality to boots, mana prime to chest and magister armor kits everywhere to achieve some some small efficiency?

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Do you think a min/max'ing dps caster doesn't carry at least two sets of gear?