So I was recently banned for "exploiting" because I was farming for gold from quest mobs (and using the quest to spawn ~ 30 mobs at a time to AoE them down. They weren't dropping anything special, it was just an easy way to get lots of mobs together and they had rather low hit points so it was, I suppose, lower risk than regular AoE farming.

I was doing this with a GM Ticket open. That's how clueless I was to the fact that I might have been doing anything wrong. And that, of course, is the source of my current problem.

Now I find myself worried that I could receive another surprise ban for seemingly innocent actions. I find myself much more timid in-game simply because, having been banned in a manner that felt rather random, I now worry quite a bit about receiving another ban (and that subsequent bans might be permanent) for another seemingly random action. You might say I'm suffering from Post-traumatic Ban disorder (not to make light of an otherwise serious affliction, I just can't think of a better way to explain my dilemma).

The problem of course is that the TOS is so extremely vague that literally almost anything could be considered exploitation if Blizzard determines it is. In fact, that's exactly what the ToS says, in not so many words, because Blizzard is the sole arbiter. If Blizzard decides something is an exploit, then it is. No appeals.

Here's one relevant section:

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Q u o t e:
(i) Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or "program bugs" to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players

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I suppose you would call what I did "bad design" (it wasn't a bug or unimplemented feature -- that's for sure) although I don't believe I was granted any "competitive advantage" over my peers, that again, is not for me to decide.

The problem is, now I worry. What if I do the achievement "Gotta go?" by using Curse of Tongues to slow cast speed on Pound and waiting for the Boss to do pound at 76% just before his submerge. That's the method players use to get that achievement and it means instead of the 3 submerges the encounter was *designed* for, if you can burn him down from 76% to below 50% in that 10 second cast time, then you only end up with 2 submerges.

Is that an error in design? Is the 310% mount I gain by completing that achievement a competitive advantage?

If you'd asked me a few weeks ago I'd have confidently said "No, of course not, what a silly question." -- but now I genuinely worry because honestly there's just no way to tell. Both that and my actions are "exploits" under the very strictest reading of the TOS -- but apparently Blizzard only uses the "strict" reading in very rare circumstances.

Moreover, the TOS asks me to effectively be a mind reader. In order to know whether a design is bad, I have to know what Blizzard intended when they designed an encounter. Apparently simply using my best judgement, as I've done in the past, is something that will eventually land me in trouble.

Lots of things have set off my exploit radar and I've specifically avoided them. Stat-stacking bugs . . . Snowmen in the dalaran sewers tubes -- the method for soloing Naxxramas on a mage that recently popped up. Those things, to me, were obvious exploits -- even though apparently nobody got banned for any of them (actually the stat-stacking bug was on PTR so that doesn't really count).

But either Blizzards enforcement of that particular clause of the TOS is downright capricious, or I simply am way off base in judging whats an exploit vs whats not.

I'm sadly a bit certain that this post here will be simply disregarded as a "QQ I got banned" post and barely given even the briefest consideration by those in charge, but I really do not mean it in that spirit (believe me I have one of those posts itching to come out but I'm suppressing it -- suffice to say Blizzards customer service regarding this entire incident was pretty horrible). What I said earlier in this thread about being genuinely worried about even playing the game because almost anything could get me banned is true. The more I think of normal game play in the same strict ToS terms that got me banned, the more realize virtually anything could qualify me for a ban. I simply cannot know in advance what Blizzard "intended" in many situations and if guess wrong it could mean I'm "exploiting".

Is there any way to explain to me why some obvious exploits aren't exploits while non-obvious ones are? What do you look for? Help me understand your extremely vague ToS. Ideally, of course, you'd simply announce for a given "exploit" that you consider activity "x" to be exploiting and that doing so will get you banned -- as you've done in the past with certain things you couldn't hotfix right away. This would be the ideal way of doing things because even though it alerts people to the existence of an exploit, it also would prevent many people from unknowingly exploiting it.

[ Post edited by Faxmonkey ]

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http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=97247
Mage Solo Onyxia

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Q u o t e:
Moreover, the TOS asks me to effectively be a mind reader. In order to know whether a design is bad, I have to know what Blizzard intended when they designed an encounter. Apparently simply using my best judgement, as I've done in the past, is something that will eventually land me in trouble.

Lots of things have set off my exploit radar and I've specifically avoided them. Stat-stacking bugs . . . Snowmen in the dalaran sewers tubes -- the method for soloing Naxxramas on a mage that recently popped up. Those things, to me, were obvious exploits -- even though apparently nobody got banned for any of them (actually the stat-stacking bug was on PTR so that doesn't really count).

But either Blizzards enforcement of that particular clause of the TOU is downright capricious, or I simply am way off base in judging whats an exploit vs whats not.

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I'm glad to hear that you have, for the most part, intentionally avoided violating the TOU. On the same token, I'm sorry that you ran afoul of our policies.
I can even understand how you might be un-nerved by your past experiences. All of that said, the TOU isn't all that unclear. I'm sure you've read it, but as a reference to those who might be following along, I'll quote it here:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

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Rules Related to Game Play. Game play is what World of Warcraft is all about, and Blizzard strictly enforces the rules that govern game play. Blizzard considers most conduct to be part of the Game, and not harassment, so player-killing the enemies of your race and/or alliance, including gravestone and/or corpse camping, is considered a part of the Game. Because the Game is a "player vs. player" game, you should always remember to protect yourself in areas where the members of hostile races can attack you, rather than contacting Blizzard's in-game customer service representatives for help when you have been killed by an enemy of your race. Nonetheless, certain acts go beyond what is "fair" and are considered serious violations of these Terms of Use. Those acts include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:

(i) Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or "program bugs" to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players;

(ii) Conduct prohibited by the EULA or elsewhere in these Terms of Use; and

(iii) Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Game.

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As a note, though, it would would be unwise to assume that other players haven't experienced account actions for exploitative behaviors. Due to our privacy policies, we will not reveal the actions taken against a particular account, after all.

I would like to try to add some clarity to this. On a basic level, if, by making unusual use of an element of design you are beating or accessing content or gaining in-game items, currency or other advantages that are unavailable to a player without the use of those particular combinations of techniques or abilities, then it is time to examine the action in question and opt for caution.

If one were feeling snarky, one could say that employing a specific strategy to defeat a raid boss falls into this description. In truth, a standard strategy is accessible to any reasonable group of players. On the other hand, cutting content short, or bypassing an intended element of an encounter would very likely be exploitative - such as using the tactic you described in your post.

If you are truly in doubt, you can even come to this forum and ask. And of course, if you'd like further clarification, I'll be happy to do my best to help illuminate the matter. Our goal isn't to make players walk on eggshells - our goal is to provide a clean and fun environment for all of our players to the best of our ability. Curtailing exploitative activities until those errors can be resolved is part and parcel of that.

[ Post edited by Malkorix ]

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support

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Well in the specific case I describe, it definitely feels like that's not how the encounter was intended to be done. In that you effectively bypass half of the encounter by exploiting the fact that the boss will not submerge if he's in the middle of a cast.

On the other hand, the achievement is undoable without that "exploit" and thus I do feel rather clueless as to what Blizzard intends there. Lots of people have done "Gotta go!" and all have employed that technique to avoid 2 of the 3 submerges because that's the only way to do it and, as far as I know, none have been banned. Thus I would assume it's safe, but I felt that was a good example as to how an every day activity could easily be considered bannable.

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Actually, to clarify that specific situation, we're aware of an issue where the time limit for that achievement is too low. We're at work to resolve that inconsistency currently. Still, it would be inadvisable to make use of an exploit to accomplish that achievement until we're able to resolve matters on our end.

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The TOS isn't 100% binding- Blizzard, you people, have been sued and lost several times in the past over "misinterpretations" of it.

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I assure you, the ToU is not only binding, but has been supported many times in the past.

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My guess, with a company the size of blizzard, they don't offer much training, or expect much from a customer-service background, or higher education from the GM's they hire, resulting in people "laying down the law" as they see fit.

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Actually, we invest substantial and ongoing training in our Game Masters, though I'm truly sorry to hear that you might have had experiences which suggest otherwise. If you should happen to have had an unsatisfying experience with a member of our staff, please feel free to send an email to wowgmfeedback-us@blizzard.com naming the staff member in question. Their superiors will have an opportunity to directly review your feedback then.

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Since they know they can hide behind their screen names, and they have the power to kick you out of the game as they feel the need, without ANY consideration to the fact that *we* pay you, well, it's created a chaotic situation which I'm not sure anyone higher-up inside Blizzard is fully aware of (as often upper management tends to delude itself about operations in large companies, and especially with customer service).

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Fortunately, I am happily in the employ of Blizzard Entertainment. To suggest that because we have customers, that those customers pay our wages is a logical fallacy that I'd prefer to avoid here.

Regardless, there is a substantial amount of oversight regarding Game Master activities. Despite your misapprehensions regarding any chaos or anarchy that might be going on behind the scenes here, I assure you that nothing of the sort occurs. Please understand that anything a Game Master says or does can be, and is, tracked.

We do not, on the other hand, tolerate violations of our policies, as they degrade the quality of the experience for every player. If you would like a reference to our policies, you can find them here:

http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=20309

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Having managed an operation similar which offered web/phone based customer support, I know that I'd immediately re-train the bulk of the GM's: they're a litigation hazard waiting to explode (again, as has been proven time and time again). I don't think I'd fire them, most likely because Blizzard isn't paying that much (you do get what you pay for, and people with Dale Carnegie certifications, heh, aren't cheap).

Lrn2customersupport

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Ah, it sounds as though any company could benefit from your vast expertise. Please feel free to visit http://www.blizzard.com/jobopp and submit an online application for employment.

Now then, was there an issue that I could assist you with directly? The comments in your post don't quite apply to the situation at hand, and while you would normally be better served by creating your own thread, I'd be happy to try to help here.

[ Post edited by Malkorix ]

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support

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That means if you're runnin' some lowbies through VC and you kill Smite before he does his stomp stun and informs your group that you're "making [him] angry!" you best hope this GM isn't on watch or better yet, you better not be running lowbies through anything for that matter.

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Common sense does apply, fortunately.

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Yes it is. That's the goal of all Stalinistic societies.

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The authoritarian enforcement of our policies has been compared to a benevolent dictatorship, and that's reasonably accurate. We set the rules, and we fully expect every player to abide by them. You, on the other hand, seem to want to apply the negative connotation of a genocidal regime. I'll thank you not to make reference to it henceforth. That kind of hyperbole is not only flatly ridiculous, but it also represents a potential violation of our forum code of conduct: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/policy/forum-coc.html

When I say 'walking on eggshells', I mean that we attempt to make our policies broad enough to be widely applicable while at the same time reasonably clear, such that most players understand when they are, or are not, violating our policies.

It seems, fortunately, that most players do.

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Q u o t e:

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our goal is to provide a clean and fun environment for all of our players

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Blowing Hodir's Horn
Raising Hodir's Spear
Thrusting Hodir's Spear
Mounting Hodir's Helm
Polishing Hodir's Helm

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Q u o t e:
clean

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The ESRB rating on World of Warcraft is 'T' for Teen. Here's a link for your convenience:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

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TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

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These standards apply to our in-game content, and some of the in-game content can be mildly suggestive. In the vast majority, we maintain a standard much closer to E for Everyone, and we do actively pursue an environment that is suitable for all our players.

This applies exclusively to content however. The standard of conduct agreed upon in our ToU holds our players to an even higher standard of conduct than that. If you feel that these quest titles are inappropriate, or our policies too stringent, please feel free to express your concerns via our Suggestions forum.

[ Post edited by Malkorix ]

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support

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Q u o t e:
A thread has to be on rails first before it can be de-railed and has to produce first to be productive.

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You seem to have a bone to pick, Bullshvik.

This thread was opened regarding the clarity of our ToU, and what defines exploitation. Svetlana's post dealt with Game Master conduct, and thus, was largely unrelated.

Was there anything I could help you with as well? Please be aware that the current tone of your posting is in fact, trolling. I have chosen not to take action as, if indeed you do have a grievance, I'd rather address it.

[ Post edited by Malkorix ]

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support

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Um, could you quit arguing with those guys for a sec and answer my question about the Argent Crusade (Troll Patrol) quests? I have not dropped the quest to reset the timer, but I could do that just about now if it is legal.

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Apologies, Reg - I missed your post between replies.

It's probably not a good idea to do so. No other quest's functionality allows such a short cut, correct?

That being the case, resetting quests in this way would likely represent a violation of our policies.

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support

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And here lies the problem, the ToU is open to too much interpretation. Just like my statements were taken in a way I did not mean them, the same happens with the ToU. So, when someone asks for help understanding Blizzard's interpretation of their ToU and it does not match up with what their's/customers thought, this is what we get. Then you run into intention versus unintention.

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Which is of course a natural concern. This is part of the reason that an account action can be disputed by emailing wowaccountadmin@blizzard.com.

I understand that one can feel that the ToU is open to broad interpretation. Partially, that is intentional, to give us the necessary latitude to correct an issue if it proves detrimental to the game. We do provide some clarifications elsewhere though. I'll link some here, for the sake of clarity:

This is our broad policies page:
http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=20309

And, within that list:

Exploitation Policy
http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=20224

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Bug Exploitation

We have a top notch Quality Assurance team who tirelessly stamp out bugs and design inconsistencies within World of Warcraft. However, a handful of trained professionals can never isolate and resolve each and every bug in such a deep and complex game accessed simultaneously by thousands of players. You may come across the occasional bug during your adventures. Some bugs are minor and do not affect gameplay, but sometimes these bugs can be used to provide an unfair advantage to certain players or affect the service itself. Factors included in determining the appropriate penalty:

* Whether or not the exploit is performed intentionally, maliciously, and/or repeatedly
* Whether or not the exploit damages another character, their gameplay, the service itself and/or its economy
* Whether or not an attempt has been made to conceal the exploit's use

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While this definition is not exhaustive and those are not the only qualifications, it does provides a potentially valuable guideline regarding appropriate in-game behavior with regard to potential exploitation.

I understand that some players may not immediately recognize an exploit, but generally speaking, most exploits are reasonably obvious. Whether a particular activity is exploitative is indeed subject to a certain amount of interpretation; on the other hand, if something seems to be too good to be true, or too profitable, or provide too great an advantage then it probably is.

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support

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Unfortunately, it does not.

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In the example that was provided, it rather does, actually. Beating the stuffing out of poor Mr. Smite hardly qualifies as an exploit.

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Case 1: Gylphed polymorph does not break on dot damage, yet every single mage that takes arena seriously uses it. In fact, SW:Death on the PTR still does not break it and Maaven does not acknowledge it as a bug. So, exploit, or common sense say its not intended because it just makes the sheep look cuter?

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Some choices are obviously more well within the control of a player than others. As it happens, we're aware of those issues and are currently working toward a resolution. If, for example, Frostbolt began doing substantially higher than normal damage, we may work very quickly to resolve it, but we're unlikely to take action against every Mage that uses it. If, on the other hand, it took a very specific series of activities to enable extremely high damage on Frostbolt, then we might take action against those that willfully abused it.

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Case 2: You ban 2 guilds from the game when they used line of sight to avoid Lucifron's curse in Molten Core when it was first released b/c "los was not an intended mechanic of the game." Yet, the next instance has 3 (4 if undergeared) encounters based on los. Common sense says that using los after 2 guilds got banned for using it in MC would be folly. Yet, those are the only solutions to the encounter (drakes if you still do not get it).

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That is an incredibly old example, so much so that I don't even know the details. I don't recall that incident specifically as it was before my time, but I suspect that there was more to that story than might have been acknowledged publicly. There generally is.

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In the end, Blizzard does not enforce the exploits evenly. You just called the method to achieve "Gotta Go!" an exploit. Yet, how many retroactive bans will be handed out? None of course. How many will be handed for using the glyphed polymorph to place at least 2 classes at a severe disadvantage in arenas against a mage? I'll bet none.

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How we treat a situation of this nature is in the vast majority of cases related to the nature of the severity of the exploit in question. As a result, it is only logical that they are not enforced 'evenly' - those that provide substantially greater advantages, or are more destructive to gameplay, will likely be treated with greater gravity.

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I think common sense is something that should apply to both sides, but when the enforcer gets to arbitrarily choose the offender, players are going to have a problem with that.

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Such things aren't decided arbitrarily though. That is a very key difference. If a case of exploitation is damaging in some way, it is very likely to excite our interest in short order.

[ Post edited by Malkorix ]

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support

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AoE farming in general is a legitimate tactic. The OP was using a particular quest to spawn mobs repeatedly, which was likely not the intended mechanic.

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An astute observation, and correct.

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support

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Q u o t e:


At 6:00pm PST last night I was farming Skeletal Runesmith's and Umbral Brute's in Icecrown. They are the mobs that have a 60 second respawn.

I would be able to farm 200g (coin and vendor trash combined, 15 stacks for Frostweave Cloth, random greens and potions per hour.

Then I log on at 2:00am PST this morning and all the mobs are dropping is simple coin and the occasion Vrykul Bones, effectively dropping the gold earned per hour from farming them down to 75g tops.

Was this an intended nerf to the area? I notice that other mobs in the area continue to have normal loot tables, although they don't have 60s respawns.

This area required a good amount of skill to farm effectively. In fact, I would even respec specifically to farm the area to be as efficient as possible. And with the ~3600 Frostweave cloth it takes to reach 450 tailoring not including first aid, etc, it was a great place to farm the cloth.

The hard-hitting mobs coupled with the fast respawn time meant that a player had to have a decent amount of skill to farm it. So why was the place nerfed?

I talked to a GM about the area and he said that several aoe spots were targeted for changes due to being abused, but said that this specific area wasn't mentioned.

Given the skill it takes to farm the area along with the fact that I've ever only seen one other player farming in the area at the same time on my server (and he was dying a lot and eventually gave up), it doesn't appear to me that this area was being abused, nor exploited.

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Those creatures were found to be providing rewards out of line with their level, density and difficulty so they were altered, that's all. I apologize if this impeded your farming, but there are still plenty of methods to acquire items, currency and cloth in Northrend =).

[ Post edited by Malkorix ]

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Game Master Customer Service Forum · In-Game Support