These Questions Need Official Answers IMSO
| by Rashoumon | 13/12/2006 17:09:38 Shellac's Post Continues... Since Post Limit Has Been Reached And Still No Reaction I Can Read Because It Doesn't Show Last Pages to start off, here is an short summary of Shellac's in patch 2.01. Positive Changes: -(PvP & PvE) Arms now gives 4% more damage to a target with deepwounds or rend up. -(PvP & PvE) MS takes a second less to cooldown. -(PvP & PvE) MS hurts 5% more. -(PvP) Second Wind is nice for rage generation and healing. in One verus One, this makes a difference. -(PvE) Improved Thunderclap is a nice support ability. -(PvE) AP is raised quite high by the Fury tree. -(PvP & PvE) Talent specs are, as intended, varied across the board. The Cookie Cutter is no more (with the exception of Endless Rage being seen as necessary for every PvP build). -(PvE) Improved Slam is a great 2H Fury talent. -(PvP) Crowd control doesn't last as long. -(PvE) Devestate provides similar base threat to a sunder once 5 are applied, but also provides damage threat, and can crit. TBH, if these were the only changes, this patch would be absolutely great! but, as always, that's not the case. read on. Negative Changes: -(PvP & PvE) Rage Normalisation means 2H Fury is completely dead. This negates Improved Slam completely, making it an empty waste of talent points. You simply cannot get rage with a two hander, without putting 41 points into Arms. -(PvP) The 41 point, be all and end all talent in the Arms tree is a shoddy quickfix to broken game mechanics. Not my impression of it, but the entire Warrior classes impression of it. -(PvE) The 41 point, be all and end all talent in the Fury tree costs too much rage, and gives little or no payoff in comparison with a) the existing AP boosts and b) the paltry DPS increase that much AP provides. -(PvE) Resilience on mobs means the all important Warrior crit rating is meaningless. I've experienced it personally, and complaints about lack of crit are everywhere. What should be one in four melee crits, turns out to be one in 10. This could be a result of the entire melee population of the game gaining the worst luck ever, but I don't think so. -(PvP & PvE) Fury has given us an extra 3% chance to hit, I miss more than ever. -(PvP & PvE) Other classes have had their damage output raised significantly. Some by new instant attacks (Hunters, Paladins), some by new talents and spells (Mages), some by +spelldmg gear buffing DoT damage (Warlocks). Warriors have not received a similar level of buffing, nor have we received an improvement to stamina co-efficients to counteract. -(PvP) Other classes have more crowd control. lengthy CC now lasts approx. half the time, so CC classes were given an extra 2 or 3 CC's to compensate, daze and stun based things. Warriors have not yet been given no form of anti-kite or anti-snare. -(PvP & PvE) Rage Normalisation has destroyed any rage gain from haste effects. Flurry, enchants, weapon procs, are all now completely useless. Fury is awful for rage normalisation, and in turn Rage distribution in comparison to its old self. And that is with the 5 man blues and greens this change would allegedly help. -(PvE) Weapon Skill has been removed, most blows are glancing, reduced crit rate through resilience cuts melee boss DPS in half, perhaps more. EDIT now confirmed by another poster on the forum that Fury DPS for Naxx Warriors has gone from 900 DPS to about 500DPS. not quite halfed. this is affecting Rogues quite badly, and the Mages are feeling it as well due to some ignite alterations. not surprisingly, Warlock DPS is up a lot. -(PvE) Our static threat abilities do not scale, the threat abilities of the Hybrid classes DO scale, and threaten to surpass our tanking abilities in the very near future. (for more info please see this thread http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=92319770&sid=1) the Warrior lives in the shadow of itemisation, except this time it isn't to our advantage. -(PVE & PVP) Reports coming in from guilds running BWL and Naxx that because armour has been buffed but damage mitigation from armour nerfed, Tanks are dropping like flies, and some of the current endgame is currently impossible. -(PvP & PvE) The game is now balanced around level 70. I am not level 70, I do not even have the opportunity to be level 70 for a month at the very least. Questions that must be asked as a result of this patch: Question One: A Warrior is a DPS/Tank Hybrid. The Warrior community takes this POV: "if we spec for damage we have no aggro control, no survivability and no other utility than damage (you can't tank endgame with DPS spec in Fury gear), therefore our damage must be high, otherwise we are worthless". All other classes say "if you want to do DPS roll a pure DPS class like Mage and Rogue". What is Blizzards POV? Do you factor raid utility in when considering a classes DPS? Where do you see Fury Warriors in comparison with "pure" DPS classes? Do you think a Fury Warrior is capable of tanking? Question Two: In PvP, how can you continually shove the "group PvP" excuse down our throats? A Warrior functions well in a group because when kept unsnared and alive, we can put out good damage. Well there are classes that can put out even better damage, keep themselves unsnared, and keep themselves alive. A Warrior is supposedly the ultimate group PvP class. "Any group containing and maintaining a Warrior will triumph over the BG", that's the official take on it. So why then are the other classes involved in this imba group, the healers, the purgers, and the dispellers given one on one viablity? Take it away from them, and give them the "group PvP" excuse and see how well they react. If a Mage is a glass cannon, a Warrior is a plastic knife. We are the ONLY class who are meant to rely on a group for PvP, if no-one else needs to rely on a group, are we only meant to be grouping with Warriors? Explain. edit to this question - http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=55006548&sid =1&pageNo=3 that's a link to Priests being told they need one on one PvP viability. that's a kick in the teeth for the Warrior, considering a Priest (or other healer) is pretty much the key component to a successful PvP team. Question Three: I was under the impression, as were many others, that one shotting was being addressed. Simple question, that is not the case, why, and do you intend to do anything about it? We still need to play this game for a month before the expansion is released, and even then I've seen the HP pools at 70, and I've seen Shadowbolts and Pyroblasts at 70. Instagibbing will still happen. As an aside, I would also like to raise the fact that Warrior PvP, solo AND group is based around the fact we have massive damage output, so must be kited at all costs. We rely on the white crit/MS crit/sword spec crit to happen when the enemy slips up or when our team ensure we remain unsnared. What happens to Warrior PvP design if one-shotting is in fact, resolved? Are we to be kited across entire zones only to find if we do get close enough, there is no burst damage to make it count? Question 4: Can we have an official justification for the rage nerfs on Haste effects? It's a subject that remains untouched by CMs and Devs AFAIK. I would greatly appreciate some kind of response for this post. It took me a long time to write, I think everything is a fair, justified point. Even if a CM cannot answer the post, some kind of recognition, and assurance that the issues may be passed on would be nice. EDITS - have added the extra BWL and Naxx trash/boss damage, and also some rough figures about the Fury DPS nerf. [ Posted by Shellac ] Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before... |
| by Crezax | 13/12/2006 21:53:40 Thank you for a very well written post. As always, I can not guarantee answers, but a post written like this makes my job of forwarding your feedback and thoughts much much faster and easier. |
by Crezax | 13/12/2006 22:13:30
I can share my personal feelings, as long as it's clear that these are my feelings and not an official statement. As for question one, I must admit I haven't had the chance to raid after the latest patch to test my damage, but if it's slightly lower than before (so that I'm just below the primary DPS classes), I'd be satisfied with it. I wouldn't expect to be able to win the DPS meters on several encounters. I personally feel we should be able to do good damage, but not top damage (unless the others slack of course). Ending up just below them is fine in my book. For question two (and three): I have said it before, and so have several others: I am not that concerned about PvP balance, since I know that I will perform well in a group situation. Balancing for 1vs1 would simply not be possible without making classes very very similar to each other, so I'm happy to see that time is being spent into improving group elements. Of course there will be weaknesses in group fights as well, but that is just to be expected. That goes for everyone. In 1vs1 you can come up with the "ultimate unbeatable tactic". As soon as you increase it to 2vs2, that becomes much much harder, and as we reach 5vs5, I don't think it's possible anymore; there will always be a counter. Again, just to make sure: These are just my personal thoughts and not an official statement. And just because I answered here myself, does not mean I won't forward your concerns to the developers. They will be passed on as always. |
by Crezax | 13/12/2006 22:23:02
Fair enough. Perform well for me means being able to kill people. Being able to outplay and outsmart others, being able to come up with a counter for something that gets thrown at me. Basically having fun while PvPing, feeling that I am contributing to my team's success. And yes, I do feel that I have unique abilities that allow me to contribute as much as any other class. |
by Crezax | 13/12/2006 22:30:38
Well it's hard to say. We will obviously grow stronger as we level up and get more stats and talents, so in that sense, we will improve. On the other hand, other classes will improve as well, so it's really too soon to tell. I'm afraid that's the best answer I can give at this point. |
by Crezax | 13/12/2006 22:40:35
Hm hard question. Large fix, what is a large fix? I can't even really think of any large fix being asked by the players, mostly minor tweaks here and there. I see some players ask for a way to be immune to roots/other crowd control effects. I guess that could be considered a large fix, and no I don't personally feel that should happen. I don't dare to say what will happen at level 70, how the numbers will look, players HP, their damage etc etc. I do however have faith in the designers number crunching, and also the fact that corrections will be made if something does not turn out as intended. I know it's a boring and evasive answer, but I really find it hard to say how things will be at 70. I honestly think it's not possible to say yet. |
by Crezax | 13/12/2006 22:46:00
Well first of all, I'd bring the people I enjoy playing with. I'm not much of a theory crafter, I prefer to actually play the game and deal with reality, if you know what I mean. (ok it sounds a bit strange to say I deal with reality in a game, but I believe you know what I mean ;) ) But: In 2vs2 arena team, I've bringing a Paladin. I have yet not lost a round with that combination. I'm sure I will at some point, and then we need to come up with a solution for that, but that's the future :) 3vs3, I haven't really thought about it that much yet so I don't know what I would bring. I think I'd keep the Paladin and pretty much any other class would be fine. |
by Crezax | 13/12/2006 22:50:39
If you are bored and not having fun while waiting, then yes, I understand you are frustrated. Since this thread is now all about me and my opinions (why can't the entire world work like this), the reason I'm not that frustrated is that I'm not bored. I have fun while I play, and I enjoy what I do, so I'm not really sitting and waiting. I'm rather playing and watching it happen. But yes, if you are not enjoying yourself, I understand your frustration. |
by Crezax | 13/12/2006 22:54:16
Magic resistance on PvP gear would be cool. I'd like that. |
| by Crezax | 13/12/2006 22:57:15 No more replies for a while. I'm going to see if I can find something to eat. |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 00:09:21
I think Rampage is okay. You're making it sound like you have to choose between that and Battle Shout. You usually spec that far into fury for PvE damage reasons. I know some go fury for PvP as well, but in most cases, you have PvE in mind if you invest 41 points in Fury. PvE often involves standing and hitting a big guy for several minutes, where extra attack power adds up to quite a bit in the long run and allows us to not fall down the damage meters. I can't comment on the amount of attack power, as that once again involves level 70, comparison to all other classes etc, but I like the basic concept of it. |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 00:17:42
Uhm well, if you'd been reading you'd see that my whole post was based on not being alone, and that we as a team could come up with a counter together. For example if I get charmed, then perhaps I could get dispelled/cleansed. If someone nukes me for 4k, maybe I could get healed. I'm sure you see where I'm getting at. I'm sorry to hear that you are so upset that you did not even bother reading my post. I'm also sorry to hear that you have issues with me eating, but I'm afraid I can't help you there. |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 00:53:09
I understand what you're saying, I just don't think you can list things like that. I don't think you can take two different classes and just compare their abilities against each other. You are using a Priest and a Mage as an example. Would a Priest + Mage combo beat a Priest + Warrior combo most of the times? Personally I'd say no. Situations like this open up for so many more options and the outcome is much more often decided by how you play rather than what class you picked. Some priests would prefer teaming up with the mage, others would take the warrior, and that is how a game should be, imo. |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 01:58:44
Well first of all, I don't agree with the first theory. I don't think anyone has said that by grouping up, we mean to stack up several of the same class. Rather group up with someone that has skills that work well together with yours, so you get a nice dynamic going. I'm sticking with my opinion that I feel I can contribute just as well as any other class in a group situation. You are saying that Warriors are bad because they need a lot of support from other group members in group fights. But isn't that what it's all about? When I say group fights, I don't mean two groups of 5 each running into each other, and then doing 5 individual 1vs1 fights simultaneously. In my world, classes are meant to support and take care of each other, and I strongly believe you'll have better results playing that way, rather than taking two strong 1vs1 classes and then running into a fight picking one opponent each. Why would they pick me over another class? First of all, if I was always the first and best choice for any given group, I'm sure we can all agree that would not be balanced? On the other hand, I should never be the last choice either, someone people ask when everyone else is busy. But is that the case? We do have abilities that come in handy in PvP. Mortal Strike, Piercing Howl, Demoralizing Shout, Hamstring, high survivability (yes, in groups) to mention a few. It's important to note that I'm not trying to make it sound like I think we are much better than every other class. I don't. But I don't think we are much worse either. I think we do alright. |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 02:13:29
What I meant with that is that we take less melee damage than most. We do however usually take more spell damage than everyone else, but we also have amongst the highest HP. Overall, it is a bit harder to kill a warrior in most situations, and also a bit easier to heal them. |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 02:18:10
Warriors are not better than all other classes when it comes to a group situation. I would say Warriors are on par with other classes when it comes to group situations. Sometimes the better choice, sometimes a not so good choice. If that is what you are saying, then yes, I agree. |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 02:33:46
I'd say my main concern at the moment is the amount of spell damage I'm forced to take due to having/wanting to be in berserker stance when fighting caster classes (and PvPing in general). Spell Reflection will help a bit. I know it's perfectly possible for a caster to just stop casting his zomg-imba-instapwnd spell and cast some rank 1 spell instead, but in reality, in the heat of battle, I don't think it will happen *that* often. And even if it does, it would buy me some seconds, which could make all the difference in the world (again, group situation). Will this be enough? I don't know. Remains to see. |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 02:37:40
People have leveled to level 70 in beta yes. But then again, people made level 60 in the original WoW beta too, and I can guarantee you that gameplay is very different now compared to then, and players have come up with new tricks along the road. Players have played the beta, but I do not feel it's possible to discover and evaluate every single aspect of so many changes in such short time. |
| by Crezax | 14/12/2006 02:46:36 Good luck :) Melt some faces from me. edit: wrong forum |
by Crezax | 14/12/2006 02:53:11
Is it really though? Let's say you are in WSG and both teams have the opponent's flag and have to choose between the mage and the warrior to hold it while your team tries to get your own flag back. I would recommend the Warrior for my team. If it was between a fury warrior and a druid, I'd say the druid takes it. If we had a protection warrior, I'd let him take it. But no, I wouldn't want to pick the mage to hold the flag, even though he has that shield. I simply don't feel his survivability is high enough. But then again, let's not venture into theory crafting. I think most would agree with me when I say Warriors have rather high survivability. If you don't agree with me on that point, we will just have to agree to disagree, I won't argue with you. |
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