The Druid: Our problems
by Synneth | 17/08/2007 16:07:06 A warning I warn all readers right now that this is a long post and there is no TLDR version. A post of this nature simply cannot be condensed into a TLDR version and if I tried to it would not convey the points I wish to make. If this is not your cup of tea please stop reading right now and go back to the forum from which you came. I only want to see constructive posts from people who have actually taken the time to read and absorb my words. What is this about? This is a thread to explain the problems Druids are facing in the game currently. It is a thread that gives problems but not solutions as per the request of Tigole. I am hoping it will be read by the forum moderators and ultimately the developers but I also hope that the Druid community input their feedback to help me improve the message as a whole. The plan I will look at the issues of each spec - feral, restoration and finally balance - in PvE and PvP. Most of my focus will be on end-game raiding and high-end arena play, it is my belief that if you get the end results right the rest will generally follow. I am starting with feral since this is the most discussed spec and also the one with some of the most glaring issues in PvP; thus, always a subject of hot debate. Feral - PvE Feral has proven to be a popular PvE spec for raiding, tanking and is a very strong solo grinding and levelling spec. However, feral does have issues in PvE which should be addressed. Scaling: In the end game As gear progresses across the field the feral Druid is being left behind in both tanking and DPS roles. A feral Druid will start to see fewer and fewer upgrades as they progress through the tier sets, however other classes are increasing at a linear rate or even exponentially faster. With the current armour caps, the main portion of damage reduction for a feral Druid stop scaling after getting tier 5 equivalent gear since the armour cap will have been reached. After this a tanking Druid can only scale in one direction; dodge. The two other tanks in the game never cap out on armour, dodge, parry, block or block value; all areas are capable of improvement as their gear improves. In a DPS setting, feral Druids are not scaling as well as their other melee counterparts. This can be attributed to a few things such as no benefit from Windfury and little benefit from haste rating since we get a lot less damage from auto-attacks. In addition there are some itemisation issues, these are covered next. Itemisation (part one): Feral specific items After Terestrian’s Stranglestaff, there are no pure DPS weapon upgrades for a feral Druid within raiding in existing content. Whilst the staff from Hyjal is of significantly higher item level, it is only a slight upgrade over the Stranglestaff and not as good tanking weapon as the Wildfury Greatstaff. Since Wildfury is a better tanking weapon, and weapons can be switched in combat, the armour and stamina on the Hyjal staff are somewhat wasted; any DPS feral who must quickly tank something can just switch to the Greatstaff. In addition, despite the Hyjal staff being item level 141, the season 2 PvP mace is better for DPS than it. There are also no feral Druid specific items for: • Neck (after Kara) • Back (after SSC) • Wrist (after PvP rewards, after heroics for PvE) • Belt (after SSC) • Rings (after SSC) • Trinkets (after SSC, but even that one is poor) The only exception to these non-tier slots is boots in Treads of the Den Mother from BT. Other than that, a feral Druid will not get any DPS upgrades after SSC (in general) unless they take Rogue gear. Items such as the Money Belt are an upgrade over Belt of Natural Power; but if there was a Druid specific belt with item level 141 (the same as the Money Belt) it would be streets ahead for a Druid. The example of this is the Treads of the Den Mother; it is 26% better [according to Emmerald’s rating] than the item level 141 Rogue specific boots - Black Featherlike Boots. Part of the reason we’re seeing reduced scaling in the end-game for feral Druid DPS is that they are starved for items after SSC. If a Rogue had to wear only strength gear (akin to Druids wearing only AP gear) after SSC they would have exactly the same problem. If a Rogue had to use the same main-hand and off-hand from Karazhan throughout all their raiding they would have exactly the same problem. Feral Druid tanks have exactly the same problems; there are few feral Druid specific items after leaving the early instances. These are the best items for the following slots as rated again by Emmerald: • Neck: The Darkener’s Grasp (SSC) - Has shield block rating on it • Back: Gilded Thorium Cloak (Kara) • Wrist: Insidious Bands (BT) - Rogue DPS bracers • Belt: Belt of Natural Power (SSC) • Rings: Violet Signet of the Great Protector (Kara) • Trinkets: Badge of Tenacity (Blue BoE) • Weapon: Wildfury Greatstaff (SSC) So again after SSC we see no upgrades to non-set pieces for feral Druid tanking except for a pair of BT Rogue wrists which just happen to be good for tanking. Again, if Warriors only had access to DPS plate after SSC they would have similar scaling problems in end-game. If ferals are to be competitive in end-game raiding, either in DPS or tanking, they need the itemisation to support them. Balance Druids can somewhat make up for bad itemisation by using cloth pieces which are just as potent as leather pieces would be, but feral Druids do not have this luxury since their stat bias is so different to other leather/cloth wearing classes. Feral - PvP Feral PvP is classically strong in the battlegrounds and weak in the arena. Druids of all specs are doing badly in 3v3 and especially 5v5 but the feral Druid is not doing well in any bracket. In 2v2 where Druids are supposedly improving and currently placed 3rd (07/08/07 numbers from Caster), there are only 6 feral Druids out of 58. Itemisation (part two): Resilience rings and cloaks Similar to the PvE issues, feral Druids must make do with obviously Rogue/Warrior bias non-tier slot items. The rings and cloaks available all have an AP bias with no strength or agility to be seen, nor intellect to help with shifting. Things are slightly better in the PvP zone since there are custom bracers/belt/boots available for feral Druids; however, the itemisation still isn’t complete. Itemisation (part three): Armour bonuses Whilst this can be said about a lot of classes, the glove bonus for Druids as a whole - but especially ferals - is somewhat useless. 0.1s reduction in casting time on Cyclone doesn’t even make up for the 100ms+ latency that nearly all players experience. Also, it is a glove bonus which a feral is much less likely to use than a restoration or balance Druid. Bugs: The infamous feral range bug There really isn’t a lot to say about the feral range bug because it’s all been said before thousands of times. I am hoping that after the current PTR changes and the comments at Blizzcon, this bug will finally go away. |
by Salthem | 22/08/2007 08:11:38 This really is an excellent post, I had seen it a while ago, but haven't had a chance to read the whole thing until now, and I felt that just blue tagging without fully reading would be dishonest. That said, I'm now adding this blue tag to show support for constructive posts like this and the discussion that follows. As I read Synneth's posts a number of thoughts occurred to me, which I'll post below. Note that these are just my personal contributions to the discussion, don't take anything too much to heart, I'm not an expert on druids:
This is usually fine, but developers and players need to bear in mind that players will need a path to follow as they level up towards the end game. I'm not saying your wrong, but just that it has been seen in the past that solving end game issues does not necessarily lead to lower end gameplay solutions and without a working lower end gameplay players wont be able to reach the end game. Feral Scaling: Druids may not be scaling as well as warriors and others at the higher end, but this cuts both ways (referencing my point above) at the lower end side of things druids for a while shortly after TBC was released became highly sought after tanks (atleast on my server) because warriors relied much more heavily on gear in order to compete. Now warriors have gear they're getting ahead of druids again. Itemisation across the board is due to get some love with the introduction of further content in patch 2.3 and beyond. Balance druids are particularly getting some better attention in Zul'Aman in 2.3. As a hybrid class though, it is normal that there are times when you are sharing gear with another class. One major benefit that druids of any spec can provide to any group that should not be overlooked, be it in PvP or PvE, is versatility. Although I admit that the min-maxing of higher end raiding or PvPing gives this less impact. I disagree with the point that Motw is such a weak buff, yes in untalented form it only buffs a relatively small amount, but a buff to every stat and resistance and armour is quite important as it gives a benefit to every class where they need it most. I personally feel the difference when grouping or raiding without it, and would expect the raid buffer to talent to improve it. Druid Arena Viability is being actively looked into, as it is for all under-represented classes. Regarding Moonkins lack of utility in raids, I'd like to draw your attention to Lithanials' Guide to Moonkin Tanking: Lithanials' Guide to Moonkin Tanking v1.1  Which I would suggest can gives you similar abilities to a protection paladin when needed whilst also being able to DPS effectively when not tanking. |
| by Salthem | 22/08/2007 09:39:55 Cathwallon and Kheletarr are putting words in my mouth. My comment on feral scaling was in reference to the point I made before it and in response to Synneth's point. I was in fact actually thinking more that this was a demonstration of issues that had appeared with warrior levelling and lower end gameplay in TBC than anything specifically connected to the druid end game (In other words, to quote myself "solving end game issues does not necessarily lead to lower end gameplay solutions and without a working lower end gameplay players wont be able to reach the end game") I know exactly how much the talents improve mark of the wild. 35% is 4.9 to 18.9 to all stats (a total increase of 29.4), 8.75 to 33.75 to all resistances, 119 to 459 armour. There's obviously no denying the Blessing of Kings is a more powerful buff, but I stand by my point that it is not so weak and that the improvement is of value. I am not a developer and the points I raised here, as I said, are just thoughts that occurred to me while I was reading Synneth's post. This level of unfounded, direct and vitriolic abuse follows any blue post on class forums (that isn't merely a 'blue-tag') so I'm getting used to it by now, but lets keep this thread, which has been excellent so far, off my own personal knowledge and on druid issues shall we? |
by Tharfor | 22/08/2007 13:48:47 Excellent, a good debate; this is (one part of) what I signed up for. Allow me to interject my opinions into this. Please keep in mind that I was a player before I was a Blizzard employee and I am a moderator and community rep now, not a developer. Druids in catform have an attack speed of 1.0 at all times. There are no weapons that I know of, for any class, that come close to that. Therefore, Druids asking for a benefit from +haste are being, in my opinion, unreasonable. This is likely the same logic behind the lack of effect from windfury and weapon procs. I feel that a lot of players have come to expect too much of the druid class and have forgotten that it is a hybrid. Druids can tank any boss (where a tank is needed) in the Burning Crusade – this is a fact. Druids can also DPS any creature in the game (ranged as a caster, or melee in catform) – this is a fact. The other classes may do this more easily, or ‘better’, but that is how it should be for a hybrid class. The original post says that druids reach the armor cap somewhere around tier 5 and the only other way to mitigate damage is via +dodge; a skill which is gained through agility increases. Later it is said that gear obtained after tier 5 is rogue orientated because it has too much agility and not enough strength. So just to clarify: druids need agility gear once they reach the armor cap, but they don’t want agility based items because it’s not as good as strength? This is a very good and well written post about the druid class. If all of the points raised here were addressed correctly, I would happily take 5 druids to a 5-man instance. I would happily take 10 druids to a 10-man instance, and I would seriously consider taking 20+ druids to a 25-man instance. My level 70 feral druid has considerably more attack power than my level 70 combat rogue friend and we both pale in comparison to our mutual druid friends (one is tank specc’d and geared, the other is DPS specc’d and geared). When the four of us get together for an instance at the weekends we don't even start asking for a healer until well into the instance. |
| by Salthem | 22/08/2007 13:55:19 I apologise if you took offence Cathwallon, but I wanted to put a stop to players thinking I had said "because we had an advantage in leveling we should have a disadvantage in the static play that is end-game" before things got out of hand. I never said that. My comment at the end of the post was not really directed at you. Having said that, I take the point regarding the MOTW buff, I must admit that the fact that it does not stack had slipped my mind when I made the initial comment (I also miscounted, 6 stats not 5). (I still like it as a buff though :) ) Regarding Synneth's reply, I'm afraid that at this time I don't have any more details for you than I already gave (which I know wasn't much). Regarding the level of items I mentioned that are coming, most immediately on the horizon we have Zul'Aman in 2.3 which is pitched just above Kharazan in terms of difficulty and gear. Further into the future there is more in the works. On arena viability, I do not have any specifics on particular builds, but it is normal for there to be 1 particular spec that can be considered most desirable for PvP, however I do think your point regarding arena gear tailoring to given specs makes alot of sense. [Edit] OMG First after blue! |
by Tharfor | 22/08/2007 15:14:24
Off-hand weapons, if I'm not mistaken, have some stupidly high base chance to miss; this makes dual-wield, for me, less desirable and relying on procs a little like a lottery. Sure, it'd be nice and you might get the power and win the game a lot of the time, but I prefer to predict my damage output through high AP, capped out weapon skills (feral combat skills ftw!), and a constant attack speed.
Yeah, of course. There are differing criteria for tanking gear and DPS gear. However from what I'm reading, the base armor for anything beyond tier 5 will be high enough so that switching into bearform will put you at the armor cap. I think we all know that pretty much every item in TBC has mucho-stamina applied to it and the only other factor for tanking is agility (right?), and that's what is being made available. I've seen here a list of 'the best' feral AP gear (from Kara and SSK, wasn't it?) So let's assume that a DPS-ing crit kitty has this 'best' setup, and that a rogue who is farming black temple has all this 'other' stuff with the agility on it. Can someone run the numbers and see if the final AP/DPS for rogue in +Agi is considerably higher than the druid in +feral AP?
Ok, I may have been exaggerating a bit here, but if everyone got all the ‘little kinks’ (read: thing-they-don’t-like) ironed out of their classes, we'd all be in God-mode with some insta-kill spell (which obviously can't kill other Gods) Also, I had to laugh earlier when I was moderating a thread in the rogue forums which had a post along the lines of ‘a boomkin druid is a must-have in any raid setup’. On one hand I’m got druids falling apart at not being loved or wanted, and on the other I have people singing their praises. C’est la vie, I guess! |
by Tharfor | 22/08/2007 15:44:16
Basically there is a twisted kind of agreement here. Druids are better than fine throughout the levelling process and the gearing up process (5-mans). They are decently comparable and entry-level raiding (10-mans) and they are no longer at the top in end end-game. I see the point and I feel it right there with you. I just like to discuss and debate things until all possibilities have been explored and this is the first thread in any forum I've been able to sink my teeth into. This is far from over, and neither is the druid class. I would like to re-iterate though that the majority of blue posts here are the opinion of the poster (i.e., me) and is not necessarily 'the truth' from the developers (like the thing about attack speed, I just used that as a platform to get myself into the discussion.) |
by Tharfor | 22/08/2007 15:48:54
Pala-what? I've never seen them heal, tank, or DPS.. but that's for another forum on another day. (Pallys: I kid, I kid. I'll have my people call your people and we'll talk. Ok?) I'm heading home (clocking off) shortly, but I'll check this thread again tomorrow and see how much people have flamed me. |
| by Tharfor | 22/08/2007 15:58:03 For sure. We'll be extracting the key points and asking questions on your behalf. After all, we're here to represent the community. ...we just can't promise timely or useful feedback. In fact, we can't really promise any feedback at all, but we do send your concerns on when we find them to be relevant and topical. |
| by Tharfor | 23/08/2007 08:41:52 This is my summary of the original post where I have picked up on the main issues and concerns and reworded them slightly. I have then picked out the recurring ideas and formed them into questions at the bottom. These are the questions that we will be trying to find answers to from a development level. I have also added a few personal thoughts and comments in italics, just because I can. If I've missed anything significant, please let me know. Feral Feral druids in PvE are concerned that the items available to them in end-game are few and far between. They feel that they are being left behind as other DPS classes, such as rogues, continue to out-damage them. There appear to be no items designed from a druid point of view in instances beyond Karazhan and Serpentshrine Cavern – druids are forced to chase rogue items. The is also growing support for druids to gain benefit from haste ratings, weapon procs, enchantments, and other melee ‘buffs’ such as windfury totems. The druid community generally agree that this would help them to keep up with other DPS classes in the current end-game. These problems also affect tanking druids and are considered to be an issue of generally poor scaling. In PvP, feral druids are facing similar issues with no druid orientated cloaks and rings (note: druids feel that strength, agility, and a little intellect are more important than raw attack power in this regard). The bonuses available on the druid armor sets are considered to be weak when compared to other classes. Restoration The restoration tree is considered ‘too full’ and any druid who spends his points there has to make difficult decisions for healing and will never have any points left to spare for solo-ing purposes. This is a problem for most ‘raid’ orientated specs, but it still considered a problem nonetheless. ((Tharfor’s comment: if you are in a raiding guild and consider yourself a serious player, surely you have the money to change your talent point allocation whenever it is necessary (every day perhaps). I mean that for all classes, btw, not just druids.)) Restoration in PvP is considered to be very strong but is dependant on sustaining heal-over-time spells and ‘hiding’ out of line of sight before being targeted by opposing DPS classes. Many players feel that this is a sort of exploit and that without it restoration druids would lose their survivability. ((Tharfor’s comment: if it’s an exploit, it would be punishable and eventually fixed. Perhaps the arenas were designed with line of sight in mind? We know that some boss encounters were…)) Items for a restoration druid are not as weak as those for feral, but many feel there is still room for improvement. Balance The balance tree has seen a lot of attention in recent times and is now a viable caster DPS option. Again, however, it is felt that the mana pool is too low and DPS must be sacrificed to avoid running out. This may be resolved in the upcoming reworking of itemisation for balance druids. ((Tharfor’s comment: surely being able to moderate your own DPS in relation to your mana and working with your ‘support’ classes is the intention? I don’t think any class should be able to go ‘full nuke’ and not suffer the consequences if the target doesn’t die quickly.)) Balance druids in PvP are few and far between despite some good crowd control options. A recurring request is that druids are able to control the treants summoned by Force of Nature much like mage elementals or warlock and hunter pets. There is also concern that despite being a DPS caster, there is no ‘fun’ involved as there are no ‘cooldown’ abilites (like Presence of Mind for mages) which create big crits and reduce other casting times. ((Tharfor’s comment: again, isn’t this a feature of multiplayer? If everyone was dealing out erratic burst DPS, it would be too chaotic for other players on your team to predict.)) Role It has been said that the role of a druid is be inter-changeable in any given situation, however the community feels that the mana costs of constantly shifting to deal with different threats is too high and a druids survivability is significantly lower than other classes who perform only one task. Concerning talents, it is felt that even when dedicating all talent points to a single role, a druid cannot match the power of ‘parent class’. Whilst this was likely an intended feature for a hybrid class, it has essential removed the desire for people to choose druids when the ‘parent class’ is available to fill the same role. Questions for the developers: *Will druids ever be able to gain benefit from melee ‘buffs’ such as windfury or weapon procs? *Are there any plans to re-evaluate the scaling and itemisation so that druids (of all specs) have their own loot upgrades to chase rather than stealing other classes’ loot? *Constantly shifting roles takes its toll on the druids mana pool, are there any plans to adjust the costs/penalties to make shapeshifting ‘easier’ and more viable in longer battles? *Can the restoration tree be looked at so that druids are able to be dedicated, and useful, healers whilst still having the ability to play the game alone outside of raid situations? *Can the balance tree have more burst DPS options to remove the tediousness of the current slow and steady output of damage? |
by Tharfor | 23/08/2007 09:16:43
Ok, I'll change that to something like: "Feral druids in PvE are concerned that the items available to them in end-game are few and far between. They feel that the gap in damage output of a druid compared to rogue, for example, is insurmountable which leads to DPS druids being left out in favour of other DPS classes."
I felt that if the itemisation, scaling, and 'weapon effects' issues were addressed, the 'white damage' output would not be such a big issue as it would be compensated for. |
by Tharfor | 23/08/2007 09:25:58
That's a fair point, Wolfpath. However you have to remember that developers won't necessarily have time to read what became a 7 page Word document. There have to be stages of filtering so that the main points reach the source without being clouded by passion. Basically what that means is, we community reps see your passion. We look too see what you are being passionate about and we send the facts on. If I were to send 7 pages of information to even my immediate superior, he would say 'summarise it for me'. He then has to send it on above him to someone who has even less free time, and so on.. He knows it's important because I'm bringing it to him. The very fact that I have taken the time to say to him 'hey, check this out' means that he will listen. I hope that makes sense, because it did in my head. I suppose what I mean is, we don't have to have the same level of impact for internal communication because it is assumed that anything we do send on is both relevant and important. Sadly you guys need to really plead your case to have it stand out from the crowd sometimes. |
| by Tharfor | 23/08/2007 10:01:07 @Qri: I'm trying avoid giving actual suggestions for changes and focus on what the community feels needs changed. Presumably if we find out what the 'problem' is, the 'professionals' can come up with balanced ways to fix them. I'm not saying don't post suggestions, but we do try to distinguish between questions and suggestions for the sake of obtaining feedback - this thread is about questions. @Inrage: I forgot to mention that the issue with Mark of the Wild not scaling has already been passed on. Since it has been a recurring issue for a while now it was easy to isolate and send it on. We still haven't had any feedback about it though. |
by Tharfor | 23/08/2007 10:17:45
Isn't this the same as: "The restoration tree is considered ‘too full’ and any druid who spends his points there has to make difficult decisions for healing and will never have any points left to spare for solo-ing purposes."
As I said to Qri, I'm trying to avoid outright suggestions and stick to questions and feedback. Natural Perfection is flawed, ok. However I have already added to the feedback that the restoration tree could use a look. Plus there is also a feedback thread where we are trying to find out exactly which single talents are considered too weak or too strong: Druid: Key talent in your build?
I'm not sure what your point is here. The general feedback is that running around and hiding a lot is unnatural. As with all generalisations, some people will disagree. In point of fact, I disagree, but this thread isn't about me or my feelings.
Again, this is a suggestion for improvement or tweaking, not a question I can ask and get feedback on.
I already said "the community feels that the mana costs of constantly shifting to deal with different threats is too high and a druids survivability is significantly lower than other classes".
This seems to be a concern about the balancing of arena points and ratings and is not directly linked to the druid class. |
| by Tharfor | 23/08/2007 11:22:33 Ah yes, sorry Synneth. I didn't mean to imply that the original post would be discarded or overlooked. I will of course be providing the link as well as the document which I generated from it. |
by Tharfor | 23/08/2007 12:11:04
Powershifting? You mean expending all your energy then popping out and back into catform to take advantage of furor? And I assume you are talking about this change:
Since the change is on the PTR at the moment and seems to be unrelated to the act of powershifting I would say that the impact on powershifting has been overlooked (either accidentally or intentionally). I'm not too sure what jurisdiction I have over the PTR feedback but I'll see what I can discover. If/when the change goes live and starts to affect people on a wider scale, then we might be able to draw more attention to it. |
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